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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Just been looking at official Ford Focus RS MK2 launch videos on Ford website. On there Jos Capito is telling us how great the front brakes are on the new FOCUS RS MK2. Apparently the calipers are an upgrade compared to the focus st caliper. I have looked at my mates Rs Focus mk2 and they are indeed a different caliper to my ST calipers. My mate reckons the brakes on the RS are excellent. I wondered if anyone had looked into fitting the RS caliper and disc as an upgrade, obviously these would have to be with 19 inch wheels i reckon, wonder if they would fit the ST? due to the RS being revoknuckle so the hub mounting may be different! - mmm! food for thought tho!
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
QUOTE(Speedfreek @ 29 Dec 2009, 10:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Front brakes on the
are Volvo XC-90 . Not too sure if they will go straight on an
though .

aaahh! yes in the video he said they are off another model in the ford group. would be interesting to find out if this caliper fits the st with 18 inch or 19s ! cheapish upgrade from the breakers possibly ?
 

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I thought about this upgrade a while ago, I want some bigger brakes now I have 19's as the standards look tiny. Im not planning any track days in the ST just mainly a visual upgrade as already stated the standard brakes are more than enough for road use.

Anyone know if the master cylinder is bigger on the RS?
 

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QUOTE(Ronnie @ 30 Dec 2009, 12:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>If you want to see bad brakes on an ST drive a mondeo ST TDci (Previous shape) ... they are shocking


I WAS IMPRESSED WITH THE BITE AND FEEL OF THE STANDARD FOCUS ST BRAKES, BUT NOT IMPRESSED WITH THE FADE THAT IS PRODUCED WITH SPIRITED DRIVING, BY THAT I DONT MEAN ON A TRACK I MEAN MAYBE ON A DUAL CARRIAGEWAY BRAKING HEAVILY FOR 3 OR 4 ROUNDABOUTS AND ON THE 4TH YOU GOT A HARD PEDAL BUT NOT SCRUBBING YOUR SPEED OFF! AND IF YOUR NOT GETTIN FADE FROM YOUR STANDARD BRAKES THEN YOU AINT USING YOUR CAR ANYWHERE NEAR ITS POTENTIAL COS THEY AINT HARD TO INDUCE FADE FROM. THATS WHY COMPANIES SUCH AS AP LOCKHEED ETC MAKE A LOT OF MONEY OUT OF UPGRADES. - BY THE WAY CHANGING THE BRAKE FLUID WILL NOT STOP BRAKE FADE, IT WILL GIVE A FIRMER PEDAL AND RAISE THE BOILING POINT OF THE FLUID, PROBLEM IS THE PAD FRICTION MATERIAL FADES BEFORE THE FLUID BOILS!. THE REAL SOLUTION IS BIGGER DISCS AND A BIGGER PAD SURFACE AREA (4 OR 6 POTS) UNFORTUNATELY THAT SOLUTION IS VERY EXPENSIVE, HENCE MY DESIRE TO FIND A CHEAPER SOLUTION ALONG THE SAME LINES! - apologies for the capital letters i didnt realise it inferred shouting! - nick
 

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QUOTE(focus149 @ 30 Dec 2009, 11:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>really . i expected them to be much sharper to be fair .. might change the fluid to 5.1

The 5.1 fluid wont increase braking or change the feel it just stops the brakes fading under hard use! My standard brakes have been virtually on fire quite often with no fade since i changed!


QUOTE(nick wiley st @ 30 Dec 2009, 06:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I WAS IMPRESSED WITH THE BITE AND FEEL OF THE STANDARD FOCUS ST BRAKES, BUT NOT IMPRESSED WITH THE FADE THAT IS PRODUCED WITH SPIRITED DRIVING, BY THAT I DONT MEAN ON A TRACK I MEAN MAYBE ON A DUAL CARRIAGEWAY BRAKING HEAVILY FOR 3 OR 4 ROUNDABOUTS AND ON THE 4TH YOU GOT A HARD PEDAL BUT NOT SCRUBBING YOUR SPEED OFF! AND IF YOUR NOT GETTIN FADE FROM YOUR STANDARD BRAKES THEN YOU AINT USING YOUR CAR ANYWHERE NEAR ITS POTENTIAL COS THEY AINT HARD TO INDUCE FADE FROM. THATS WHY COMPANIES SUCH AS AP LOCKHEED ETC MAKE A LOT OF MONEY OUT OF UPGRADES. - BY THE WAY CHANGING THE BRAKE FLUID WILL NOT STOP BRAKE FADE, IT WILL GIVE A FIRMER PEDAL AND RAISE THE BOILING POINT OF THE FLUID, PROBLEM IS THE PAD FRICTION MATERIAL FADES BEFORE THE FLUID BOILS!. THE REAL SOLUTION IS BIGGER DISCS AND A BIGGER PAD SURFACE AREA (4 OR 6 POTS) UNFORTUNATELY THAT SOLUTION IS VERY EXPENSIVE, HENCE MY DESIRE TO FIND A CHEAPER SOLUTION ALONG THE SAME LINES! - apologies for the capital letters i didnt realise it inferred shouting! - nick

Believe me ive had my car right up to its potential and had no brake fade with the 5.1 fluid! I have now fitted the AP 4 pots but only because i use the car on track a lot! To be honest if you really are getting brake fade from the pads melting on the road you wont have to worry about it for long because either youll kill yourself or get banned from driving fairly soon!


ps. Brake fade is normally caused by the fluid boiling and thats why upgrading the fluid stops it! You also have to change the fluid regularly to keep the performance! 5.1 fluid should be changed every 6 months really as it is more hygroscopic than lesser fluids! The other thing to check is that you have genuine Ford discs and pads fitted as pattern parts and specially Mintex pads cause even more overheating problems!
 

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I've always thought that pedal feel or pressure etc is down to fluid, master cylinder etc but if you've got decent pressure at the lever/pedal and it just ain't stopping then you're looking at pad/disc material. Unless the servo has run out of vacuum like ST170's used to do.

So if the standard pads are fading but pedal pressure is ok then maybe uprated pads will do the job? can't say i had an issue with standard pads but I changed initially to Mintex then binned those squeaky pigs in place of new standard discs and Ferodo DS2500 pads. The Ferodos are a track spec pad but work fine on the road too
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
QUOTE(fishface31a @ 31 Dec 2009, 09:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The 5.1 fluid wont increase braking or change the feel it just stops the brakes fading under hard use! My standard brakes have been virtually on fire quite often with no fade since i changed!


Believe me ive had my car right up to its potential and had no brake fade with the 5.1 fluid! I have now fitted the AP 4 pots but only because i use the car on track a lot! To be honest if you really are getting brake fade from the pads melting on the road you wont have to worry about it for long because either youll kill yourself or get banned from driving fairly soon!


ps. Brake fade is normally caused by the fluid boiling and thats why upgrading the fluid stops it! You also have to change the fluid regularly to keep the performance! 5.1 fluid should be changed every 6 months really as it is more hygroscopic than lesser fluids! The other thing to check is that you have genuine Ford discs and pads fitted as pattern parts and specially Mintex pads cause even more overheating problems!

By the way pads dont melt! they overheat - this means that they are working above their designed optimum temp, hence brake fade sets in. This i know as I am a qualified mechanic. Brake fade occurs before the brake fluid boils as the pads friction with the disc create heat as a by-product. Fluid boiling occurs, if you use uprated brake pad friction material that raises the optimum working temp. By the way I have fitted ebc blind-drilled and grooved discs, like yourself I like to do trackdays both in my ST and on my YZF R1. And i still say that the standard set up suffers from brakefade far too quickly or why have ford chosen to equip a RS that weighs the same as an ST with bigger discs and superior calipers? Please dont say its cos the RS has 300bhp, its the same weight mass to bring to a halt wether its from 70mph or 150mph.
 

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QUOTE(nick wiley st @ 1 Jan 2010, 10:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>By the way pads dont melt! they overheat - this means that they are working above their designed optimum temp, hence brake fade sets in. This i know as I am a qualified mechanic. Brake fade occurs before the brake fluid boils as the pads friction with the disc create heat as a by-product. Fluid boiling occurs, if you use uprated brake pad friction material that raises the optimum working temp. By the way I have fitted ebc blind-drilled and grooved discs, like yourself I like to do trackdays both in my ST and on my YZF R1. And i still say that the standard set up suffers from brakefade far too quickly or why have ford chosen to equip a RS that weighs the same as an ST with bigger discs and superior calipers? Please dont say its cos the RS has 300bhp, its the same weight mass to bring to a halt wether its from 70mph or 150mph.


As you will know, in stopping the car the braking system is taking the kinetic energy of the moving body
and converting it into heat. (There are other subtleties, but that's the gist of it)

Anyway, kinetic energy is calculated as (mass x velocity^2)/2.
That's the amount of energy in Joules that the brakes are tasked with getting rid of.

The RS is both heavier by 75kG and faster due to the extra power and improved aerodynamics
(which is the squared term in the above equation, so significant), it would make good sense to uprate the brakes, which Ford have done.
I haven't looked on the RS forums, I bet there are a few owners complaining that their brakes need improving.

To answer your original question on whether or not the XC90 disc/calipers could be made to fit I'd
call Gary @ Profile. He knows the RS and ST inside out & sells a variety of brake upgrade solutions.
I've asked him about exactly this for the rear brakes & the answer is no. The back ends of the 2 cars are really different.

You are right the pads don't actually melt when overheated, the binders in the compound boil off (way more than normal)
and the material is never the same again. Where does the brake fade come from with the OEM setup?
Probably both the pads and the fluid are boiling. The root causes are fundamentally the ST is a heavy car (the m term of the half m v squared equation) and I think driving style as well.
It's only my theory, I suspect driving style has a lot to do with the 'oh no it isn't, oh yes it is' exchanges on this forum when talking about brakes, just as many say the brakes are great, as awful.
So as not to sit on the fence, I think the standard set-up is pretty sharp for road use and not really up to the job for serious track use.
But, more than OK for the occasional track day (2-3 times a year) as long as you were prepared to limit
session time and partially bleed brakes before/after each event.

As a first go at improvement without spending too much £s you could try Ferodo DS2500 pads with a higher spec fluid and see how you get on.
Slotted & grooved discs may help a bit to de-gass the pad, I think the Ford OEM discs are quite resistant to warping.
Personally I've never found anything branded EBC to offer an improvement, so would stick with the Ford discs.
Although, others whose opinion I respect, swear by EBC I never did anything but swear at them.

I'm quite fond of track days in the ST, I can't afford (definately too fat) to go racing any more.
I went with the Profile AP 4 pot upgrade, if nothing else the pads are cheaper & there are
loads of vendor/compound choices for the CP5200 caliper. Looks cool as well. It was the line of least
resistance for me, I knew I would probably end up with them so convinced myself it was saving money to buy them sooner rather than later


HTH, Jon
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
QUOTE(JayGee @ 2 Jan 2010, 02:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>As you will know, in stopping the car the braking system is taking the kinetic energy of the moving body
and converting it into heat. (There are other subtleties, but that's the gist of it)

Anyway, kinetic energy is calculated as (mass x velocity^2)/2.
That's the amount of energy in Joules that the brakes are tasked with getting rid of.

The RS is both heavier by 75kG and faster due to the extra power and improved aerodynamics
(which is the squared term in the above equation, so significant), it would make good sense to uprate the brakes, which Ford have done.
I haven't looked on the RS forums, I bet there are a few owners complaining that their brakes need improving.

To answer your original question on whether or not the XC90 disc/calipers could be made to fit I'd
call Gary @ Profile. He knows the RS and ST inside out & sells a variety of brake upgrade solutions.
I've asked him about exactly this for the rear brakes & the answer is no. The back ends of the 2 cars are really different.

You are right the pads don't actually melt when overheated, the binders in the compound boil off (way more than normal)
and the material is never the same again. Where does the brake fade come from with the OEM setup?
Probably both the pads and the fluid are boiling. The root causes are fundamentally the ST is a heavy car (the m term of the half m v squared equation) and I think driving style as well.
It's only my theory, I suspect driving style has a lot to do with the 'oh no it isn't, oh yes it is' exchanges on this forum when talking about brakes, just as many say the brakes are great, as awful.
So as not to sit on the fence, I think the standard set-up is pretty sharp for road use and not really up to the job for serious track use.
But, more than OK for the occasional track day (2-3 times a year) as long as you were prepared to limit
session time and partially bleed brakes before/after each event.

As a first go at improvement without spending too much £s you could try Ferodo DS2500 pads with a higher spec fluid and see how you get on.
Slotted & grooved discs may help a bit to de-gass the pad, I think the Ford OEM discs are quite resistant to warping.
Personally I've never found anything branded EBC to offer an improvement, so would stick with the Ford discs.
Although, others whose opinion I respect, swear by EBC I never did anything but swear at them.

I'm quite fond of track days in the ST, I can't afford (definately too fat) to go racing any more.
I went with the Profile AP 4 pot upgrade, if nothing else the pads are cheaper & there are
loads of vendor/compound choices for the CP5200 caliper. Looks cool as well. It was the line of least
resistance for me, I knew I would probably end up with them so convinced myself it was saving money to buy them sooner rather than later


HTH, Jon

I agree! As a finishing note since purchasing EBC discs and yellow pads I have to say I have heard a lot of negative reports on their car products but I have used their motorcycle braking products for years and been very happy with them. My original FORD discs warped when using yellow pads so I purchased EBC discs. Dissapointed with both EBC pads and discs, so noisy! I totally agree the way to go is 4-pots, its just the money issue as usual, but like you say thats what i will prob end up with!
 

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QUOTE(nick wiley st @ 1 Jan 2010, 10:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>By the way pads dont melt! they overheat - this means that they are working above their designed optimum temp, hence brake fade sets in. This i know as I am a qualified mechanic. Brake fade occurs before the brake fluid boils as the pads friction with the disc create heat as a by-product. Fluid boiling occurs, if you use uprated brake pad friction material that raises the optimum working temp. By the way I have fitted ebc blind-drilled and grooved discs, like yourself I like to do trackdays both in my ST and on my YZF R1. And i still say that the standard set up suffers from brakefade far too quickly or why have ford chosen to equip a RS that weighs the same as an ST with bigger discs and superior calipers? Please dont say its cos the RS has 300bhp, its the same weight mass to bring to a halt wether its from 70mph or 150mph.


I was going to write a reply but Jay Gee beat me to it lol!


QUOTE(nick wiley st @ 2 Jan 2010, 10:22 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I agree! As a finishing note since purchasing EBC discs and yellow pads I have to say I have heard a lot of negative reports on their car products but I have used their motorcycle braking products for years and been very happy with them. My original FORD discs warped when using yellow pads so I purchased EBC discs. Dissapointed with both EBC pads and discs, so noisy! I totally agree the way to go is 4-pots, its just the money issue as usual, but like you say thats what i will prob end up with!

If you are serious about track use then the APs are definitely the way to go! For the road though they are massive overkill!


PS although im not a "qualified mechanic" i have a bit of experience! Having had bikes on and off road since i was 12, raced 6 seasons on YPVS 350 Yamahas and a season in karts! Ive owned the ST for nearly 3 years and 45000 miles, done 86 laps of the Nurburgring in it and quite a few laps round various British circuits! If i give an opinion its based on what i have found in real life rather than what ive heard!
 

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QUOTE(JayGee @ 2 Jan 2010, 02:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>As you will know, in stopping the car the braking system is taking the kinetic energy of the moving body
and converting it into heat. (There are other subtleties, but that's the gist of it)

Anyway, kinetic energy is calculated as (mass x velocity^2)/2.
That's the amount of energy in Joules that the brakes are tasked with getting rid of.

The RS is both heavier by 75kG and faster due to the extra power and improved aerodynamics
(which is the squared term in the above equation, so significant), it would make good sense to uprate the brakes, which Ford have done.
I haven't looked on the RS forums, I bet there are a few owners complaining that their brakes need improving.

To answer your original question on whether or not the XC90 disc/calipers could be made to fit I'd
call Gary @ Profile. He knows the RS and ST inside out & sells a variety of brake upgrade solutions.
I've asked him about exactly this for the rear brakes & the answer is no. The back ends of the 2 cars are really different.

You are right the pads don't actually melt when overheated, the binders in the compound boil off (way more than normal)
and the material is never the same again. Where does the brake fade come from with the OEM setup?
Probably both the pads and the fluid are boiling. The root causes are fundamentally the ST is a heavy car (the m term of the half m v squared equation) and I think driving style as well.
It's only my theory, I suspect driving style has a lot to do with the 'oh no it isn't, oh yes it is' exchanges on this forum when talking about brakes, just as many say the brakes are great, as awful.
So as not to sit on the fence, I think the standard set-up is pretty sharp for road use and not really up to the job for serious track use.
But, more than OK for the occasional track day (2-3 times a year) as long as you were prepared to limit
session time and partially bleed brakes before/after each event.

As a first go at improvement without spending too much £s you could try Ferodo DS2500 pads with a higher spec fluid and see how you get on.
Slotted & grooved discs may help a bit to de-gass the pad, I think the Ford OEM discs are quite resistant to warping.
Personally I've never found anything branded EBC to offer an improvement, so would stick with the Ford discs.
Although, others whose opinion I respect, swear by EBC I never did anything but swear at them.

I'm quite fond of track days in the ST, I can't afford (definately too fat) to go racing any more.
I went with the Profile AP 4 pot upgrade, if nothing else the pads are cheaper & there are
loads of vendor/compound choices for the CP5200 caliper. Looks cool as well. It was the line of least
resistance for me, I knew I would probably end up with them so convinced myself it was saving money to buy them sooner rather than later


HTH, Jon

'n hell!
i need to go back to school!
 
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